Oct. 10, 2022

#162: Richard Lyall, President of RESCON: Developer Fees are HAMMERING the Most Vulnerable

#162: Richard Lyall, President of RESCON: Developer Fees are HAMMERING the Most Vulnerable

Housing prices are going up everywhere, it seems. The City of Toronto recently announced a 46 percent increase to developer fees over the next two years, which will ultimately drive prices up further. Richard Lyall is the President of the Residential Construction Council of Ontario (RESCON), to discuss what he sees as the impacts of the City's decision. 

🔗 Richard Lyall 🐦 Twitter - https://twitter.com/RESCONprez

💻 Website https://rescon.com

CONNECT WITH CHRISTOPHER 🎥 YouTube Channel - [Under Construction]  🐦 Twitter - https://twitter.com/CABalkaran

📸 Instagram - https://instagram.com/openmindspod

💻 Website - Still working on the new one!

👥 Linkedin - www.linkedin.com/in/christopherbalkaran

📚 RESOURCES MENTIONED

City of Toronto - Developer Charges - https://www.toronto.ca/city-government/budget-finances/city-finance/development-charges/

Government of Ontario, Bill 197: https://www.ola.org/sites/default/files/node-files/bill/document/pdf/2020/2020-07/b197ra_e.pdf

Richard Lyall's 2021 Article on the Skilled Labour Shortage - https://www.canadianrealestatemagazine.ca/news/trades-shortage-looms-large-in-construction-industry-334573.aspx

 📄SHOW NOTES & TRANSCRIPT available for this episode

🎙 ABOUT THE PODCAST

Imagine if you could explore, with genuine curiosity, the most controversial and divisive topics of our time. The conversations would push you to explore new areas and uncover insightful ‘a-ha’ moments that pique your interest. I’m Christopher, and I have created engaging Podcast discussions since 2018 to do exactly this. I have completed Podcast series on abortion, tobacco control, basic income and more. I invite guests involved in these areas to share with me their opinions. My hope is that through this natural exploration, I can craft a Podcast experience that attempts to build bridges during a time when we need it the most. Join me on the Open Minds with Christopher Balkaran Podcast.

🙏 LEAVE A REVIEW If you enjoyed listening to the podcast, we'd love for you to leave a 5-star review on Apple Podcasts to help others discover the show :) https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/open-minds-with-christopher-balkaran/id1442624314

👋🏼 GET IN TOUCH You can also Tweet @CABalkaran with any feedback, ideas or thoughts about the lessons you've learnt from the episodes. Feel free to DM me too!

Transcript
[Richard Lyall]:

i'm on the call

[christopher]:

hi richard how are you

[Richard Lyall]:

good morning how are you

[christopher]:

i'm well i'm so excited to have you on because you are the president of the residential council of ontario construction council ontario and i wanted to talk specifically about what made you get into the sector as you've been in the sector since nineteen ninety one as i can recall

[Richard Lyall]:

ah now you know that's an interesting question i started off when i was going to university and even prior to university i worked in construction now there were various sort of family

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

related businesses and that kind of thing and and i actually worked on job sites and and any

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

number of jobs and it was good to me and i was able to for example get through university

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

no family

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

money on that by the way it was

[christopher]:

wow

[Richard Lyall]:

it's all you know that's

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

part of our i guess tradition but you know

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

i was able to pay my tuis and pay

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

for an apartment have a car and

[christopher]:

wow

[Richard Lyall]:

and you know worked hard i often ended up going

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

to she is with boots on and stuff like that and then

[christopher]:

wow

[Richard Lyall]:

after that i did a couple of things but my real goal was to work as a reptraderepresentative for the government and econom development and that was related to my studies and then

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

so i did

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

that and spent some time doing that and for a number of years and then when

[christopher]:

yah

[Richard Lyall]:

i left

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

ver ment i came into the industry

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

and

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

you know and it was something i was close to so it's near and

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

dear to my heart and of course

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

i love the industry because i'm very you know i'm sort of h

[christopher]:

m oh

[Richard Lyall]:

i like to think i've got an intellectual side to me but i love the

[christopher]:

you definitely

[Richard Lyall]:

tact

[christopher]:

do

[Richard Lyall]:

yeah and i love the tactile element of things you know at college

[christopher]:

hm

[Richard Lyall]:

i was a roller i love chopping wood so it's sort of

[christopher]:

out o way

[Richard Lyall]:

um so it's been great and and and and of course relative to economic development housing is one of those

[christopher]:

no

[Richard Lyall]:

very unusual things in world it's

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

a need

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

is not optional for most people it's the biggest thing that people spend money on and you know family and homes are critical to the well

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

being society in a community and things like that so it was attractive and you know i've been here since

[christopher]:

i'm fascinated to know more about your time and university and how you kind of boot strapped your way through it you know even in today when we have really high tuition costs really high cost of living in general in our urban centers

[Richard Lyall]:

yeah

[christopher]:

there's a lot of talk about how unaffordable it is but one thing that i don't hear enough about is a really strong work ethic and

[Richard Lyall]:

h

[christopher]:

you know even back

[Richard Lyall]:

m

[christopher]:

in the eighties and nineties my parents even tell me you know they would always tell me you know you never come home with excuses you

[Richard Lyall]:

uh

[christopher]:

know what what you know if you didn't

[Richard Lyall]:

oh

[christopher]:

get the job what didn't you do right it's not the employer like how can you didn't measure up and so what can you tell me about that work ethic how did you develop that at such an early age

[Richard Lyall]:

well i guess a few things i mean i'm probably one of the only members of my extended family on both sides that's ever worked for anybody else

[christopher]:

wow

[Richard Lyall]:

the so it's a deep entrepreneurial background very independent you know we don't

[christopher]:

wow

[Richard Lyall]:

get along right

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

lot up a lot of interesting

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

family arguments and

[christopher]:

sure

[Richard Lyall]:

and

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

so when it came to

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

university i know i was a truck driver i was a car jockey i

[christopher]:

wow

[Richard Lyall]:

did a couple of intremrial things in fourth year i started a lighting company uh

[christopher]:

okay

[Richard Lyall]:

you know i worked as an orderly in a porter in a hospital

[christopher]:

wow

[Richard Lyall]:

that was actually really good money i used to do every saturday night i do

[christopher]:

ah

[Richard Lyall]:

a double shift downtown toronto hospital um which

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

got busy you know

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

the emergencies and stuff like that and and did that for a number of years also did some volunteer work too and and and then

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

of course you know i had that interest in economic development um

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

and because actually a good part of my youth it's a most of my youth was spent i

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

was in the curabean that's another

[christopher]:

hm

[Richard Lyall]:

story

[christopher]:

on no way

[Richard Lyall]:

but it was a great one and i went to high school where they had um justice under god it was a jesuit school and when you broke the rules you did hard labor they had all

[christopher]:

wow

[Richard Lyall]:

so projects on the go and and and so on and it was physical work and so i actually

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

learned construction skills that way which came

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

to good use when

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

you know and i went to where the money was right so

[christopher]:

sure

[Richard Lyall]:

you know i made money in those different areas that i worked at it at various times but construction a kind

[christopher]:

i

[Richard Lyall]:

of always stayed with me and

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

and and the real advantage of that was i learned what it's like to be in sub zero weather in very uncomfortable positions

[christopher]:

mhm

[Richard Lyall]:

you know knowing and understanding what it is that you know the people that build things that actually

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

do the building go through and the differences between the different elements that go into producing how so you've got the government role the

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

regulatory role you got the design role the architects and engineers and you have um you know the finance role and then you've

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

got

[christopher]:

hm

[Richard Lyall]:

land planning

[christopher]:

ye

[Richard Lyall]:

and all that stuff uh and and development role and then you

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

have the people that actually put up the buildings and they're they're

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

a pretty unique group within our society

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

you know some of the most independent people i know and the people

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

that have very insightful opinions

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

on things are skilled trades people the really good

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

ones because

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

they can get a job anywhere

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

and they don't

[christopher]:

right

[Richard Lyall]:

put up with any nonsense from anybody and

[christopher]:

right

[Richard Lyall]:

you know so some of the best political debates i've ever had have been on cob sites

[christopher]:

uh

[Richard Lyall]:

of all things right when i was

[christopher]:

uh

[Richard Lyall]:

when i

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

was doing doing my university work and you know an i pursued that and it was fun and i you know i had i learned a lot working in government in pauls and as an economic development officer so you know

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

one was really kind of at the center on what are the policies and programs and the delivery of those things but the other thing was actually deliver the programs the industry

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

and going out to factories and plants and things like that you know i can

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

remember when i was coming up we had you know government was doing some interesting stuff you know they put some money into little opera sons like black berry and max

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

you know

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

that

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

were these quirky little things that

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

became very big

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

things and so

[christopher]:

yeah m

[Richard Lyall]:

but you know coming down sin since you know i've been at this for a long time and and and really the the main problem with with the housing situation is systemic um

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

you know it's kind of like there's a thing called parkinson's law you know when when any entity is created whether it's private sector republic sect or it's going to seek to grow uh

[christopher]:

hm

[Richard Lyall]:

sometimes now in the private sector you've got a bottom line right and so

[christopher]:

right

[Richard Lyall]:

if you can't cut it you can't make a profit you're not goin to be in business for long in the public sector you don't have those it's of guard rails and you can have mission creep and we've

[christopher]:

hm

[Richard Lyall]:

had a ton of mission creep

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

over the earth and we've had you know further and further sort of int ventions in the market place and the problem with those is that when you lay intervention on top of intervention on top of intervention you

[christopher]:

h

[Richard Lyall]:

end up where we

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

are where we've got a glace

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

more abundduninnovative

[christopher]:

yeah yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

delivery system and and

[christopher]:

ah

[Richard Lyall]:

it's really stalled the market development of housing and you know less so the housing

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

is so big

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

and construction is so big it's not something that government can sort

[christopher]:

right

[Richard Lyall]:

of take over you know the next

[christopher]:

h

[Richard Lyall]:

biggest thing is cars

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

and now i like i like to say that people imagine if the government was building cars

[christopher]:

oh i wouldn't drive it

[Richard Lyall]:

no it wouldn't wouldn't be able to it wouldn't work right so um and and the problem there is just that the market markets com native market spring a discipline

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

that you don't have in the public sector and the other problem is you know we do have competition laws but government s exempt from that but when competition

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

laws were introduced over a hundred years ago there wasn't really much in the way of government service delivery now we've got a lot of government and entities that are delivering services especially in the approvals area and for exam well building and development but there's no real disciplines there

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

they're not subject to performance standards time lines things like that and it's

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

and then now we're at a point where got forty five different government agencies in

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

and in the approvals process and you know it's it's so hard to get really to get anything built and then you get two taxes fees and levies and that's that's the whole other story because

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

we

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

you know we're now way out of whack on that

[christopher]:

richard you mentioned

[Richard Lyall]:

m

[christopher]:

and we'll get to that and because i really want to discuss that with you but you mentioned the trades and you know this is one thing that i always kind of think about myself is when it comes to not only public policy and public servants but also when we think of the higher echelons and government ministers prime minister were seeing less and less people at least from me that are in the skilled trades going for those positions are at least getting to those positions and i always wonder you know what are we as a country missing out and you're a big proponent of the skill trades in fact you wrote an article in the canadian real estate wealth magazine documenting the impact of skilled labor shortages in canada

[Richard Lyall]:

hm

[christopher]:

why do you think that there is this kind of

[Richard Lyall]:

m

[christopher]:

reluctance to embrace skilled trades workers in terms

[Richard Lyall]:

ah

[christopher]:

government decision

[Richard Lyall]:

m

[christopher]:

makers but also in our society writ large i just feel like the police sometimes are written without that kind of knowledge

[Richard Lyall]:

well you know you always have to understand the history of something to really break you know you got to break it down to understand okay

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

what's the problem now where did it come

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

from and what

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

do we need to do fix it i

[christopher]:

right

[Richard Lyall]:

think and there's a long history to this you know the post where era

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

you know

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

the the we won the war right so we were brilliant

[christopher]:

hm

[Richard Lyall]:

and we had we did that based on our ability to produce things manufacture and

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

innovate innovation was huge and so

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

after the war we had tremendous immigration

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

but there was this went into this world where science and technology could basically solve everything you know the jet sons right

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

sort of the space he

[christopher]:

ah

[Richard Lyall]:

family and all

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

that stuff is very big and so and then you the baby boom and and this explosion of wealth after the war to the g p

[christopher]:

hm

[Richard Lyall]:

numbers and productivity numbers were off the church so

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

a lot of

[christopher]:

right

[Richard Lyall]:

young people were naturally driven towards college

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

and well we didn't really have colleges and they came in the sixties but we had universities and

[christopher]:

mhm

[Richard Lyall]:

and that was the big drive and and

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

some other stuff and um gradually as we went

[christopher]:

ye

[Richard Lyall]:

through the sixties and seventies into the eighties the the vocational training elements in our school system were public education system were denewed uh

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

the and and and

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

you know we did benefit from a massive influx of skilled trades immigration that so we we really didn't have to go there

[christopher]:

hm

[Richard Lyall]:

and

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

of course the whole income picture and everything else like that was

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

changing dramatically

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

over time

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

uh and and so we lost that capacity

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

that's why you know only i think it's maybe maybe one percent

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

of high school graduates in canada are registered apprentices

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

you compare that to germany and it's a totally

[christopher]:

ah

[Richard Lyall]:

different story you know

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

germany the average age of an apprentice is nineteen

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

were twenty nine years old

[christopher]:

wow yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

and we we lost that respect

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

and part

[christopher]:

yah

[Richard Lyall]:

of it was the english cast system

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

too like you know the trades

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

person was you go around at the back door or you don't

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

come in

[christopher]:

eh

[Richard Lyall]:

the front door and so so

[christopher]:

how

[Richard Lyall]:

now

[christopher]:

interesting

[Richard Lyall]:

as as time evolved the value of skill traces went up i mean just think about it you know when

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

when you get that pipe

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

that bursts in your house and the water is going

[christopher]:

we

[Richard Lyall]:

all over the place what

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

re you what are you going to pay a plumber to fix that pretty much pay him

[christopher]:

she's

[Richard Lyall]:

anything right

[christopher]:

pretty much

[Richard Lyall]:

you know

[christopher]:

pretty much

[Richard Lyall]:

and and so and then you know the price of housing went up

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

and then and then it really ran away i mean you know a few adjust

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

the cost of housing for inflation

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

relative to other products automobiles and so on and so forth for the last forty years you know housing is right off the charts you look

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

at automobiles on the other hand adjusted for inflation automobiles are no more expensive than they were fifty years ago

[christopher]:

right

[Richard Lyall]:

you're getting a lot you're getting a much better car now though right

[christopher]:

definitely

[Richard Lyall]:

your bags and all the technology and everything

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

so

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

so you know with with with housing

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

and construction that was quite different and then so we we we lost that and now we've read and then and then for a long period of time it was kind of like what happened with transit you know we used to have the best transit system in the world

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

and we kept saying we did for about ten years after we didn't

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

because and so

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

the with respect to skill trades it was well young people don't want to enter the skill trades their lazy they don't

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

want to work hard and of course all that is mumbo jumbo i mean young people

[christopher]:

all right

[Richard Lyall]:

to day are

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

as good as they ever were in eve generation

[christopher]:

hm

[Richard Lyall]:

always says the young people are lazy

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

and they don't want to do

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

things right because you know there's a lot of behavioral

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

psychology that but

[christopher]:

a

[Richard Lyall]:

but we we we lost the ability in the pacity to introduce skill trades to young people

[christopher]:

mhm

[Richard Lyall]:

the system systemically still we do not utilize aptitude testing properly

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

we have a one size fits all process to direct hits towards colleges and universities we don't invest the resources time or effort into finding out how does that kid learn what are they really interested

[christopher]:

hm

[Richard Lyall]:

in and maybe they would be really good in the skilled trades and the skilled

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

trades now is not you know we're

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

often treated still it's funny as a as sort of an area of employment of

[christopher]:

my

[Richard Lyall]:

last resort and we're not you know

[christopher]:

hm

[Richard Lyall]:

skill the skill trades are is becoming you know a lot of technology

[christopher]:

a

[Richard Lyall]:

in it now and

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

it's very interesting and you know i know some young people who've got

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

their tickets they're working in the skill trades through twenty two years old they have no debt they're making great money

[christopher]:

wow

[Richard Lyall]:

and they've got

[christopher]:

amazing

[Richard Lyall]:

the opportunity if they want to uh start their own businesses and and

[christopher]:

right

[Richard Lyall]:

some do i mean that's where you know are our builders and in

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

the world we live in are quite often come out of the traits and become super visors and then evolve into project managers and start companies and and

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

that's their origin and you know

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

their net worth is not bad right

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

so

[christopher]:

much better than many m b a grads that's for sure

[Richard Lyall]:

that's right so we're re discovering the value of the skill trades the parents aren't the problem somebody said to me well seventy five percent of parents don't want their kids going in the skill trades i said okay that's not a problem so what you

[christopher]:

hm

[Richard Lyall]:

know i did at that

[christopher]:

hm

[Richard Lyall]:

number

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

if the parents were fully informed and so on and so forth but let's say it is seventy five per cent well twenty five percent is plenty right

[christopher]:

right

[Richard Lyall]:

we can you know what do we wnt we want maybe up to ten per cent that would

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

go into the construction industry skill trades and so on and so forth

[christopher]:

hm

[Richard Lyall]:

and that's fine it's just that that pathways weren't there

[christopher]:

ye

[Richard Lyall]:

and the supports because

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

you know in the skill trades in the world of apprenticeship who is the educator here right well it's actually

[christopher]:

right

[Richard Lyall]:

it's actually the employer

[christopher]:

right

[Richard Lyall]:

right

[christopher]:

right

[Richard Lyall]:

and how is the employer being supported in this effort well i can tell you on a dollar volume basis it's nothing compared to what colleges and universities get so on a

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

per capita basis every year for example the last numbers i saw were about two three years ago every university student that states kicking and sixteen grand ahead for public education is about fourteen thous it had for

[christopher]:

uh

[Richard Lyall]:

college is

[christopher]:

h

[Richard Lyall]:

it was twelve thousand ahead you're not

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

getting that in

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

skill trades and the employers aren't getting that and then the way the

[christopher]:

ah

[Richard Lyall]:

system was structured

[christopher]:

yes

[Richard Lyall]:

it's antiquated so

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

you know we had the system where you go you go to school for a while then you go to work and then you go

[christopher]:

at

[Richard Lyall]:

back to school and so on it's very difficult for employers

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

especially smaller employers when they lose their apprentice back into a pool they don't know if they're gonna them back so that kind

[christopher]:

mhm

[Richard Lyall]:

of has a chilling effect on the the wherewithal of the employer to actually take on an apprentice and really invest the time in because

[christopher]:

hm

[Richard Lyall]:

i say well you know i spend time training somebody and then i lose them

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

so there are things there there are some systemic

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

things there that need to be changed and then one of the big problems

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

we have right now is

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

that our technology

[christopher]:

ah

[Richard Lyall]:

and change is happening

[christopher]:

eh

[Richard Lyall]:

faster than

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

rigid bureaucratic systems adjust

[christopher]:

one hundred percent

[Richard Lyall]:

you know markets are more nimble but not governments and

[christopher]:

that's right

[Richard Lyall]:

and government bodies and you know one of the problems with

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

the provision of government services is again

[christopher]:

my

[Richard Lyall]:

the lack of performance standards and what happens if you don't get something done on time

[christopher]:

right

[Richard Lyall]:

if it's a monopoly

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

service provider even and quite often you know the fee for services so look if you look at that velopment building applications approvals process that's all fee for service it's a monopoly and if somebody is saying sorry g we lost your drawing so

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

we can't get this done on time or you know we'll get back to you or hey it looks good we'll send you that confirmation and then you

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

get at you know six months

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

later there's really

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

much you can do about

[christopher]:

ah

[Richard Lyall]:

it and you really can't complain about it you know i had a call the other day from

[christopher]:

ah

[Richard Lyall]:

journalist who said i'd like to talk to a couple

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

of builders about this and i said i bet you would but i said i can't get anyone for you it's

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

a short notice but

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

be nobody wants to be the complainer because then you might end up on the wrong list right

[christopher]:

yeah yeah yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

so and

[christopher]:

so

[Richard Lyall]:

by

[christopher]:

true

[Richard Lyall]:

the way and that's not just true that's true to the markets also true to to social services providers that are non governmental

[christopher]:

mhm

[Richard Lyall]:

they've got to be careful that they're getting along with the people because they might get

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

on the wrong list to with respect to the supports that they're receiving

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

through you know the tax the tax person right

[christopher]:

that's

[Richard Lyall]:

oh

[christopher]:

right richard just on that

[Richard Lyall]:

ye

[christopher]:

point of skilled trades for

[Richard Lyall]:

yeah

[christopher]:

young people you know you've written a lot about exposure

[Richard Lyall]:

yeah

[christopher]:

and i want to discuss that with you because in high school we were not exposed to this trades at all in fact it was looked down upon you know if you're taking shop classes like oh all you'll become is like a mechanic of a now car at a dealership and that was it

[Richard Lyall]:

ah

[christopher]:

it was really frowned upon and

[Richard Lyall]:

here you get the

[christopher]:

you know eh right

[Richard Lyall]:

right

[christopher]:

exactly and nobody but the pathway to go to a to do your academics and go to university was well laid out people showed you that hey you know if you get eighty five and you'll definitely get into u f t u t you'll get a four year degree

[Richard Lyall]:

oh

[christopher]:

and you'll get this really nice paying job that was really promoted

[Richard Lyall]:

ah

[christopher]:

very high in high school um and not skilled trades and so i want to know from

[Richard Lyall]:

oh

[christopher]:

you how can how can we work with the school

[Richard Lyall]:

yeah

[christopher]:

boards to make it make it ubiquitous

[Richard Lyall]:

oh

[christopher]:

that both skill trades and academics can get you to that place but kids need to be opposed to both not just kind of

[Richard Lyall]:

what

[christopher]:

one over the other

[Richard Lyall]:

you know it's it's that it's a fantastic question

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

there's a lot to unpack there

[christopher]:

yeah yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

let me say this i think school boards to a certain extent are trapped within their own their own restrictions world what ever they're not

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

not particularly nimble then you've got

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

the school you've got the teachers unions right

[christopher]:

yes

[Richard Lyall]:

um so and they all have their different objectives and generally speaking systems like that don't really like change that much because change

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

is the pro oblem you know within organizations like that

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

you're not necessarily rewarded for being at the cutting edge of things in fact

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

you're often

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

a problem

[christopher]:

yes

[Richard Lyall]:

no matter

[christopher]:

yes

[Richard Lyall]:

how right you are and so you know one of the big problems we've got in the school system is for example that we identify was in the counseling offices right for years because

[christopher]:

m m

[Richard Lyall]:

the

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

councilors we're often teachers

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

and quite often you know the teachers the people that went to high school went to university and then went back to high school i don't really

[christopher]:

hm

[Richard Lyall]:

know anything about the skill trades

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

so they're not well equipped to discuss them quite often schools for example do not have the connection s with local industry you don't have the

[christopher]:

right

[Richard Lyall]:

structure

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

where for example you could take a bus load of kids and you know take them on side a tour of a construction site or something like that those things

[christopher]:

right

[Richard Lyall]:

are not really there there's you know for example in toronto there's this wonderful program called the step program which is the skill

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

it's

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

exploration program

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

run out

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

of northern secondary high school fantastic

[christopher]:

hm

[Richard Lyall]:

program i've been involved and sponsored and i love going to the graduating class every year and it was about

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

you know thirty

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

six kids a year and they go through a specialized skill

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

program that get they go up with various contractors and and a week here in a week they are experiencing different trades and really getting hands on and some real hands on education you know some project

[christopher]:

wow

[Richard Lyall]:

management education fantastic

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

program and we've been you know from ting this thing should be expanded and whatever it finally was it was doubled so now it's seventy odd students a year that's one

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

high school out of a hundred and one high schools in the t s b right

[christopher]:

wow

[Richard Lyall]:

so

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

you know and the leader the person who runs that philiboname of el ve moro is so committed to it he's been he's just he's

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

one of those fantastic educators and i got to tell

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

you you know you go to the graduating

[christopher]:

ah

[Richard Lyall]:

classes every year they always have eight kids that get up and tell their stories and you want to talk about good speakers and they're not they're not doing that what they're

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

being educated for but

[christopher]:

right

[Richard Lyall]:

you know when you learn about how this program

[christopher]:

ye

[Richard Lyall]:

has changed their lives that they were lost in the system and

[christopher]:

huh

[Richard Lyall]:

of course you know now we've got this really bad habit of just passing kid whether or not you know

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

you rarely fail that's not a healthy thing either and then you get these kids

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

that are coming out of high school you know graduating with a sole fifty five or sixty average and

[christopher]:

hm

[Richard Lyall]:

really no where to go right

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

and when in fact you've got you know

[christopher]:

ah

[Richard Lyall]:

a significant percentage of kids i don't know what the number would be but i think it would be somewhere between fifteen and twenty percent of young people

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

are really ideally suited for doing the kind of tact ile visual the visual learners right

[christopher]:

hm

[Richard Lyall]:

because you know are our school systems not set up for visual learners and a lot of kids are visual learners

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

um

[christopher]:

right

[Richard Lyall]:

you know in other words you can get them a book of instructions and they're lost right

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

if you show them how it's done they get it

[christopher]:

right

[Richard Lyall]:

right away and they're all over it and

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

so you have these stories

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

about kids to go through this program and it actually i have i don't want to say on every occasion

[christopher]:

ah

[Richard Lyall]:

but just about most of them i've cried because

[christopher]:

wow

[Richard Lyall]:

they're

[christopher]:

ah

[Richard Lyall]:

because you see how young person's life has been fundamentally changed but systhemically

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

the capacity to evolve and adjust

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

isn't there one of the other problems too i think is that the cost

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

there's two other problems here

[christopher]:

hm

[Richard Lyall]:

the cost of running these kinds of vocational

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

programs there's equipment

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

and it's expensive

[christopher]:

hm

[Richard Lyall]:

it's not like in english or something like that where you know now

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

it's even just tonic here you've got

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

to have equipment and tools and things like this there's that element to it too and then the

[christopher]:

hm

[Richard Lyall]:

other element is they don't have the teachers right

[christopher]:

right

[Richard Lyall]:

so

[christopher]:

right

[Richard Lyall]:

where are you getting your teachers from well teachers college and teachers college are mainly drawing from called university graduates right

[christopher]:

that's right

[Richard Lyall]:

and and nothing wrong with that don't get me wrong it's just that they

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

don't have the pool of teachers there but this is

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

where technology comes into play where in counseling offices if we were really alizing current modern up to date technology

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

we would be doing the aptitude testing so we would understand how each individual kid learns right

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

and then we would be also finding out about what are they really suited for

[christopher]:

ah

[Richard Lyall]:

you know i've got two

[christopher]:

hm

[Richard Lyall]:

daughters that look like runaway

[christopher]:

ye

[Richard Lyall]:

models and they

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

went through they went through the career testing at their high schools

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

this wasn't

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

long ago and

[christopher]:

ah

[Richard Lyall]:

both of them one of the kind of scared me a little bit i started

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

locking my bedroom door and i went i

[christopher]:

uh

[Richard Lyall]:

was sleeping because i thought you know

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

this could go the wrong way but

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

they

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

to the profession picked for both of them one of them was tax a journey

[christopher]:

wow

[Richard Lyall]:

yeah

[christopher]:

amazing

[Richard Lyall]:

yeah what is that right

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

i thought maybe i got a couple of psychos on my hand here

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

here if if there if their careers are supposed to be stuffing dead animals i mean this

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

is not good not a

[christopher]:

uh

[Richard Lyall]:

good thing but you know like where

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

does that come from i mean

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

and you say this is this is utterly like it's hilarious but

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

there's so far behind now imagine if you had a count clean office okay so you can't do all the tours you can't do that stuff but imagine if you had a counseling office where you were utilizing a r and p r and a and this kind of thing and i could

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

go in there and put on

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

the helmet or imagine

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

it was like ready player one because we do have that technology know they can get on a unity directional platform with the gloves and a helmet and they can

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

actually walk through a nucular power plant

[christopher]:

wow

[Richard Lyall]:

or walk through a subway tunnel and see what's going on you know

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

um

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

so that would be you know we've got the technology we can make use of that um and and there should be an all out effort to modernize our counseling offices and modernize our approach to education

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

i mean it's just

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

it's rim markable

[christopher]:

ye

[Richard Lyall]:

that each kid in the system hasn't got a personalized assessment as to their learning capabilities

[christopher]:

ah

[Richard Lyall]:

aptitudes and interests

[christopher]:

right

[Richard Lyall]:

like but

[christopher]:

right

[Richard Lyall]:

but getting those changes through the system you know is

[christopher]:

it's got yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

it's it's

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

it's so hard and this is where you know for example

[christopher]:

okay

[Richard Lyall]:

like all of my kids i've had outside too orson to one degree or another which the system benefits from by the way you know their higher great point averages and whatever else

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

like that are results not necessarily of what they got in the in the in the system it's the outside tutoring right

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

and

[christopher]:

hm

[Richard Lyall]:

stuff like that

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

but but that's where you have to go because you know frankly the quality of education is declined and we're not

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

we're not meeting our needs if you think of and measure this right we know what the shortage of skill

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

trades is costing us it's

[christopher]:

yes

[Richard Lyall]:

in the billions of dollars on terror its

[christopher]:

ah

[Richard Lyall]:

measured and that's why you know we've got a wonderful you know the current government ontario is all over this which is fantastic you know

[christopher]:

hm

[Richard Lyall]:

minister money mcdonn you know

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

at the risk of sounding biased but i mean he really

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

is doing a remarkable job in this whole area and long overdue

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

so but we

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

we need we need and it will continue and these things will

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

happen there inevitable but you know that's another thing systemically is that i am finding

[christopher]:

ah

[Richard Lyall]:

that

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

you know canada and ontario were so rich right like we've got resources

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

water food people stability safety

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

we've got the best neighbor in the world which is

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

to be the most powerful country in the world doesn't

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

hurt beats russia right so

[christopher]:

definitely

[Richard Lyall]:

um you know so we're doing

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

well that way but but

[christopher]:

ah

[Richard Lyall]:

you know systhemically

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

it's almost like that wealth has enabled

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

us to sort of sit back and be

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

the last to innovate be the last to introduce

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

the latest techniques and ways and abilities and so on

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

you know i once had a question put to me by someone who said you know the germans are curious why why do the canadians keep coming over there eurftrur saying how do you do it and then we wish show them all the stuff we do and they go home and then the next year the same institution in canada sends another group over with the same questions

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

and year after year after year like what's going on we don't get it and

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

i was asked why is that happening i said because it's a nice trip

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

it's not making you know they're getting a good

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

trip to germany but it's not they're not bringing it at home

[christopher]:

that's

[Richard Lyall]:

and

[christopher]:

right

[Richard Lyall]:

and part of that again is that systemically and this is the power of competitive market systhemically when you're a monopoly and you don't have to change you the

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

on't

[christopher]:

that's right

[Richard Lyall]:

you'll still

[christopher]:

i've

[Richard Lyall]:

seek to grow though right

[christopher]:

a hundred percent i always i was tell my friends about there's a historian i read that said you know the

[Richard Lyall]:

oh

[christopher]:

moment the

[Richard Lyall]:

oh

[christopher]:

romans the as tex the inca felt invincible they kind of they rotted from the inside and all it took an external

[Richard Lyall]:

yeah

[christopher]:

power who wasn't more powerful than them to kind of hit the nail in the coffin and it's so true it's like

[Richard Lyall]:

yeah

[christopher]:

i always think canada is such a wealthy nation

[Richard Lyall]:

oh

[christopher]:

but people don't realize how geographically blessed we are to have one neighbor that we get along with so well

[Richard Lyall]:

yeah

[christopher]:

we're surrounded by oceans like no

[Richard Lyall]:

oh

[christopher]:

one is going to really attack us or it would take a lot to attack us and we kind of kick up our heels when it comes to that we don't think of some of the inter all issues that we have with as much urgency as perhaps other countries do

[Richard Lyall]:

yes

[christopher]:

i wanted to

[Richard Lyall]:

yeh

[christopher]:

ask you specifically on that because you're talking about skilled

[Richard Lyall]:

oh

[christopher]:

trades and how important it is

[Richard Lyall]:

oh

[christopher]:

you were speaking and i thought i wouldn't it be amazing to

[Richard Lyall]:

yeah

[christopher]:

also do partnerships for high school so you know government of ontario says you know tesla might come up here our hand is building a new plant how

[Richard Lyall]:

okay

[christopher]:

awesome would it be to have you know neer auto

[Richard Lyall]:

oh

[christopher]:

engineers come down to grade eleven great ten class and say hey let me show you around

[Richard Lyall]:

yeah

[christopher]:

the plant

[Richard Lyall]:

oh

[christopher]:

up in that wood stock you know let me show you how we're building the hondo pilots or something you know because at fourteen fifteen who knows if they

[Richard Lyall]:

oh

[christopher]:

want to go to university or college or the skilled

[Richard Lyall]:

oh

[christopher]:

trades and i see myself in my own career people who went through undergraduate masters did liberal arts got into government or private sector

[Richard Lyall]:

oh

[christopher]:

there still kind of trying to figure out what they want to do in their

[Richard Lyall]:

yeah

[christopher]:

career and they're still kind of trying to think of oh i could do

[Richard Lyall]:

oh

[christopher]:

a side hustle as a lighting company i could do a side hustle as

[Richard Lyall]:

yeah

[christopher]:

a plumber and

[Richard Lyall]:

yeah

[christopher]:

man i always think if only

[Richard Lyall]:

yeah

[christopher]:

we were exposed to someone those things at an earlier age

[Richard Lyall]:

yeah

[christopher]:

we could have gone down different paths

[Richard Lyall]:

oh absolutely well this is part of where you know one of the one of the great pieces of research and it still hasn't hit home here yet is that

[christopher]:

hm

[Richard Lyall]:

kids buy in large also

[christopher]:

ah

[Richard Lyall]:

people will debate this make up their mind about what they're going to do with their lives and what they're going to work on what really turns them on grade six seven and eight

[christopher]:

wow

[Richard Lyall]:

you need to reach them then

[christopher]:

wow

[Richard Lyall]:

almost if you get them in high school it's almost too late so

[christopher]:

interesting

[Richard Lyall]:

for example some of the trade

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

exploration type

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

and

[christopher]:

ye

[Richard Lyall]:

career exploration type programs that have been introduced in other jurisdictions

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

though their getting to the kids earlier like for example there is one great program the u s where for about two weeks they take kids and they'd actually design

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

a house they would do a takeoff list and create a gant chart of all the things that have to go into that house and then they do a gant shirt on building it again hurt meaning you know

[christopher]:

hm

[Richard Lyall]:

chart as to what happens when along the process they

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

sit out right

[christopher]:

hm

[Richard Lyall]:

and and then they build a model a little you know a small model

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

of the house

[christopher]:

wow

[Richard Lyall]:

and

[christopher]:

fascinating

[Richard Lyall]:

yeah you

[christopher]:

ye

[Richard Lyall]:

know and it's been hugely successful

[christopher]:

mhm

[Richard Lyall]:

and i'm sure there were other things

[christopher]:

kay

[Richard Lyall]:

like that relative to other careers and professions i'm not

[christopher]:

h

[Richard Lyall]:

i'm not sure

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

about military police you don't want them swinging

[christopher]:

sure

[Richard Lyall]:

buttons in great sector where is my

[christopher]:

shooting

[Richard Lyall]:

assault

[christopher]:

a rifle

[Richard Lyall]:

but you know i'm making fun but

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

the fact is is that

[christopher]:

yah

[Richard Lyall]:

need to get to the kids

[christopher]:

y

[Richard Lyall]:

then and not

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

be judge mental about

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

it and also i mean one of the great stories that i think it is getting out through effective now one of the things we did for example we sponsored and led the way to create a fifty different videos of young people half women half men in wentyfive different trade sectors who are working as skilled trades people and it's their story it's not some

[christopher]:

nice

[Richard Lyall]:

old guy like me coming along

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

and talk into

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

a classroom the kids in saying hey you should

[christopher]:

right

[Richard Lyall]:

do what i did no

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

don't like get this

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

guy out of here

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

like oh my god you know unless they showed

[christopher]:

right

[Richard Lyall]:

up with like a cinaplex movie pack citizen

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

pizza coupons and stuff like that they don't want to

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

they don't ant

[christopher]:

so

[Richard Lyall]:

to hear from me but

[christopher]:

sure

[Richard Lyall]:

if you

[christopher]:

sure

[Richard Lyall]:

can make this cool you

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

can make it interesting

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

you can be nonjudgemental about it and you can also one make were sown now is you know the kind of money you can make in a skilled trade sere

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

and but you've

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

got to get in there early and and then you but you need to have a pathway then right

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

so

[christopher]:

exactly

[Richard Lyall]:

you mentioned earlier on and it was a very good point for example you said that you know

[christopher]:

ye

[Richard Lyall]:

when it comes to going to university there's very clear pathways you know exactly what you have to do and wan and sell

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

and so forth

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

you don't have that with the skill trades

[christopher]:

no

[Richard Lyall]:

and that is something that is there's attention being paid to that now but there's

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

a lot more work that has to be done there

[christopher]:

and in starting a business being entreprenurial you know thinking

[Richard Lyall]:

yeah

[christopher]:

back just thinking about all the different avenues that so many of my friends could have gone down i always think about that

[Richard Lyall]:

oh

[christopher]:

i'd be remissed if we didn't talk

[Richard Lyall]:

yeah

[christopher]:

about the residential construction

[Richard Lyall]:

yeah

[christopher]:

council ontario with

[Richard Lyall]:

right

[christopher]:

your president of

[Richard Lyall]:

yeah

[christopher]:

andrescons mission is to work in co operation with government and related state holders to offer realistic solutions

[Richard Lyall]:

oh

[christopher]:

to over riety of challenges facing the

[Richard Lyall]:

yeah

[christopher]:

residential building industry here in toronto and municipalities across canada there's

[Richard Lyall]:

oh

[christopher]:

always that approval process for

[Richard Lyall]:

oh

[christopher]:

new buildings which leads into development costs and then final prices for

[Richard Lyall]:

yeah

[christopher]:

consumers housing

[Richard Lyall]:

yeah

[christopher]:

is like seems to be the number one issue on everyone in especially now with rising inflation and the cost of living bloom book recently wrote that some of the biggest municipalities in the world are are wrestling with

[Richard Lyall]:

m

[christopher]:

massive housing prices what are some

[Richard Lyall]:

m

[christopher]:

of the biggest challenges that municipalities wrestle with when approving

[Richard Lyall]:

oh

[christopher]:

new buildings in the city because in toronto we have a big issue of supply

[Richard Lyall]:

yeah

[christopher]:

for the amount of demand that we have yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

yeah well i mean you know i've

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

mentioned systemically so the first big problem that we have is in the area for example zone and site plan approvals land use

[christopher]:

oh right

[Richard Lyall]:

you know frankly the rules are antiquated

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

the there are reforms that are here and will be coming that need to address that i mean you know the big problem that we had there was when we introduced the growth plan at two thousand

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

and five in the green belt they

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

kicked the density can down the road and what mean

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

by that was they said okay we're going to restrict sprawl and we've got a plan now so we know you know what growth means and what we need to do and whatever else like that but then when came to allowing for higher densities and changing official plans and changing the planning system those kinds of things it was put off so

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

all of a sudden you took a huge amount of land out of the system and investment you know markets work on perception people said to me oh there was still lots of land to build on whatever now markets are always future looking and they work on of perception and the perception was there's going to be a shortage to land in fact there turned out to

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

be a shortage to land

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

because the systems we had in place to track and insure that we had an adequate supply of land a support development m went kind of missing let me put it that

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

way you know and and

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

and then the second big thing they did in fact this came out was in the news recently in twenty seven team when they did the last view of the growth plan guess what

[christopher]:

hm

[Richard Lyall]:

they were using

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

old demographics

[christopher]:

oh jees

[Richard Lyall]:

now how do you do that

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

like you know heads would be rolling in the private

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

second in the private sector organization of somebody cooked up something

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

like that because it would be a plan for failure and that's what we have

[christopher]:

hm

[Richard Lyall]:

a huge

[christopher]:

hm

[Richard Lyall]:

failure in house i supply

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

and and

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

eighty to ninety percent of the housing crisis we have right now is a systemic self inflicted wound i mean look

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

you're you do

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

have people in our society that just don't

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

have any money to pay for housing and that's

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

that's where sharing carrying society and the role of government is to

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

sort of step in and deal with that that's what i call socia housing but you should have functioning and effective marketplace and we don't because

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

so many different balls were

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

dropped i remember reading something about four years ago where one group i won't say who it was announced that they were going to start aligning housing planning

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

with transit planning and i thought

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

and my

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

an inch instant reaction was you mean you weren't doing that

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

like are you guys idiots

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

you know you know and then we've got

[christopher]:

right

[Richard Lyall]:

these debates over

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

whether or not we should have high density housing around major transit hubs well of course we

[christopher]:

right

[Richard Lyall]:

should

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

every advent city in the world does you know like this and then you know i get these

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

i remember getting a call from a journalist saying

[christopher]:

h

[Richard Lyall]:

oh hey market lane way housing

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

is this going to solve our housing crisis action

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

broke out laughing

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

you know like what are we going to get out of this a thousand two thousand units may be right

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

you know we need we need

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

an extra seven hundred and fifty thousand over the next ten years

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

i don't think this is going to solve our housing crisis right but

[christopher]:

right

[Richard Lyall]:

you know

[christopher]:

right

[Richard Lyall]:

the worst thing all humorous side the worst

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

thing and it's like with the development charges and the taxes

[christopher]:

ah

[Richard Lyall]:

fees and levies on how seeing they've grown exponentially eight hundred

[christopher]:

yes

[Richard Lyall]:

to a thousand per cent just over ten years the

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

regressive so who's really getting hammered by that are the people and this is a ding i mean

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

we've got battalions

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

of policy makers running around talking about equity equity equity well you want to talk

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

about inequitable we're hammering the people who can least afford it the ones most vulnerable with these regressive flat unit based taxes and it's not a

[christopher]:

okay

[Richard Lyall]:

develop nentricity talk about growth pace for growth you know de ces originally kind

[christopher]:

cool

[Richard Lyall]:

of came up with new subdivision development where there was no community there and whatever but now the stuff is applying to everything and they've gone

[christopher]:

hm

[Richard Lyall]:

through the roof in file housing where you do have infrastructure in place largely where the surrounding community benefits

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

from that and they're saying no they got to pay for a hndredpercent of it growth pays for growth well guess what and oh and you

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

know the developers can afford

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

that they can pay for it

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

i've said to people

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

what are you smoking the developers

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

and builders don't pay for this this goes to the new home buyers it goes on ax

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

is the new renters

[christopher]:

that's right

[Richard Lyall]:

and so you've got that problem and then they cook up so they've introduced this you know toronto just came up with forty

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

six percent increase

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

forty six per cent and and

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

we're supposed to say oh that's okay what does that say to everybody else in the supply chain and then

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

on top of that they came up with this inclusion are zoning plan now inclusion

[christopher]:

that's right

[Richard Lyall]:

ary zoning is in principle i

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

like it not a problem

[christopher]:

ah

[Richard Lyall]:

but what they did here is ludicrous and it was dead on rival because they said okay

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

if you've got a new hundred unit building the new rule say twenty you know ten per cent of those units save for example have to be affordable for you know a very extended period of time like ninety

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

nine years whatever

[christopher]:

hm

[Richard Lyall]:

and and that's it we're not going to get we're not going to say okay we want ten per cent of fordability but we'll let you

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

build two more floor

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

on the building or whatever you know where you have a

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

city what they call dan city bona say no you're just going

[christopher]:

hm

[Richard Lyall]:

to cost this up

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

well

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

you know and and then you have the developers

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

can pay for this you got city counsellors people like that saying oh the developers gonna pay for the developers don't pay for this it goes on the backs of the consumers

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

and and

[christopher]:

that's exactly

[Richard Lyall]:

and then who does it hit the most there the ones who can barely afford the product and in fact often get

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

knocked out of the market because

[christopher]:

that's right

[Richard Lyall]:

it's moved beyond

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

them and it's it's it's not a development

[christopher]:

yeah

[Richard Lyall]:

church its tax right

[christopher]:

hm

[Richard Lyall]:

let's get one thing and it's a completely inequitable

[christopher]:

m

[Richard Lyall]:

regressive tex and now

[christopher]:

uh

[Richard Lyall]:

they've since come out and said well

[christopher]:

oh

[Richard Lyall]:

we won't charge it here or we won't apply it there or whatever like that okay you know that it's

[christopher]:

oh m oh yeah wow ah yeah yeah yeah yeah oh yeah geez yeah ah yeah yeah oh mhm m m mhm that's right that's right yea ah yeah yeah yeah yep yeah oh that's right um m yeah yeah right you're totally right in fact i've i've thought about long and hard about whether or not toronto is for me long term um just the way things are going austin and florida seem to be really much more tractive especially with this podcast i always thought to myself that would be amazing but but i don't want to just leave because i understand there are issues here there are issues there as well i want to chat with you about a couple things that mentioned first government bureaucracy so you've got the benefit of being in government as well as being outside government and these other jurisdictions they also have bureaucracies they also have governments probably no different than ours in toron ontario in canada i find burecrats move around every couple of years it seems including senior management including deputy ministers sometimes and so when we think about transit housing policy if you know that person is not going to be there in five years let's say they're not necessarily committed to this kind of long term plan in addition to our political cycle being for every four years but yet these other jurisdictions with a burocricy are able to craft housing policy and make development charges much lower than the g t a what can account for this discrepancy in p aucrisy and how are other jurisdictions able to kind of circumvent that knowing that the life span of a burecrat might just be a few years in their current role uh uh yeah a yeah yes right yeah yeah yeah yeah ah i m m m yeah yeah m yeah oh m hm yeah yeah yeah yeah oh yeah oh mhm m wow oh yeah m m m right ye m yeah m m oh oh yeah oh ah yeah oh yeah ah yeah ye ah a mhm yeah hm yeah yeah yeah yeah that's right that's right oh yeah hmm oh yeah we're just ah yeah yeah yeah oh you're you're totally right richard in fact the last thing i want to chat with you about i feel like there needs to be a part two to our conversation so i might actually reach out out to you because i think this is great thank you i want to chat with you about the forty six percent developer fee that the city of toronto has increased on on developers now totally new to this i wanted to understand why he would the city do that so for those that don't know council here in the city of toronto and voted in july to high development charges by forty six per cent for new residential buildings with the increase to be faced in over two years the fees are collected at the time a building permit is issued and are used to fund infrastructure needed to support a growing population including transit roads and housing so what this means is that a single or i mean detached home will pay an additional forty three thousand dollars above the current rate of ninety three thousand dollars the charge for constructing a condo with two or more bedrooms will go from thirty five thousand dollars currently to seventy seven thousand dollars and the fee for apartments with two or more bedrooms will increase from twenty five thousand to fifty five thousand i wanted to know why the city did this and on their website they pointed the provinces bill one ninety seven the province put forward puts forward built one ninety seven to o municipalities to increase development fees on approximately twenty one different areas transit waste diversion police services fire subway extensions so i can just imagine a city counsellor or birocrat saying you know what we increase these fees because all of these other fees transit subways all these other things are going up in price and so we need as the city to i guess pass those charges on to the developer what say you to that kind of logic i can see you smile i can probably already guess what you think yeah yeah oh oh yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah what yeah yeah ah oh oh yeah right yeah yeah ah oh oh yeah oh yeah m ah oh yeah m m yeah hm m yeah yes m yeah oh m yeah yeah good yeah right right oh yeah mhm mhm yeah yeah h m yeah oh yeah right yeah yeah yeah yeah ah hm yeah m yeah yeah oh yeah yeah sure yeah yeah yeah i yeah oh yeah yeah yeah oh right m yeah m oh hm yeah yeah oh m m yeah good m m oh yeah hm yeah oh yeah super easy yeah i love it yeah just upload a j peg of yourself and let let the passport office figured out i don't get it yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah oh yeah yeah yeah ah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah you're totally right oh yeah ah yeah yeah ah yeah yeah oh yeah oh oh yeah it prevents any type of ye yeah okay yeah uh uh yeah yeah yeah m we're world class yeah m hm yeah hundred percent yeah now richard you're completely right and you know i think i know we're just about to wrap up here and i feel like there needs to be a part too because we've we've barely scratched the surface i think on so these big issues um but i just first of all want to say you have provided a lot of insight into the skilled trades issues that toronto has and perhaps other cities across the in north america you provided insight into some of the development limitations here in the city of toronto and i think a lot more millennials are asking of their government the questions asking so i totally agree with everything that you're saying that more people speaking up is actually better i can't thank you enough for your time you are an incredibly busy person and you've got a lot of people to deal and you've made time for myself i definitely think there should be a part two and i'll send you an email about what i think part two will look like but i can't thank you enough for being on the podcast thank you awesome awesome richard thank you so much right that's it richard